rsensor file format

I have just measured the spatial response of some of our photocells and discovered some rather serious deviations from the standard cosine response.

I am looking at the new rsensor tool to model this response, so I can estimate the errors compared to a proper cosine-corrected cell for certain configurations. However, the sensor format is not entirely clear to me.

a) What are the units in the sensor file? Is it normalised to anything? An IES data file, for instance is normalised to 1000lm.

b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected illuminance meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum at 1.0 for an angle of (0,0)?

c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has a correct cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as is should be. Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2? Cube root because the overall response appears to be proportional to the volume contained within the 3d shape of the curves.

d) After a bit of googling around, I found this page:
http://www.lightingresearch.org/programs/nlpip/publicationdetails.asp?ID=916&type=1

Which appears to be the photosensor report referred to on the SPOT web site. The NLPIP don't seem to make suggestions about the actual file format for electronically transmitting the spacial response (or any other photocell characteristics for that matter). I am therefore wondering why the rsensor data file is what it is. It seems that the standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe the sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the SPOT format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import filter instead?

Example:

The example from the rsensor man page:
degrees 0 90 180 270
0 .02 .04 .02 .04
45 .01 .02 .01 .02
90 .001 .002 .001 .002

As a Radiance dat file, this would look like (I think):
2
0 270 4
0 90 3
.02 .04 .02 .04
.01 .02 .01 .02
.001 .002 .001 .002

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts

Axel

Hi Axel,

This is a timely question. Zack and I are going to give a review of rsensor at the Radiance Workshop and I need to refresh on these issues anyway. SPOT includes spatial sensitivity files for the sensors tested in the NLPIP report you referenced, so you can download the program and take a look at the files and implementation - if you haven't already.

Answers to your specific questions:

a) and b) For the comparison you want to do, the values would be relative sensitivity - relative to a cosine response with maximum of 1 as you described. This would allow the result with a cosine distribution to be computed as illuminance depending on parameters and the result with any other file to be "signal" relative to illuminance. For the NLPIP report, the zero azimuthal direction (view up vector) coincides with a prominent feature on the photocell housing, such as an arrow. This is probably not clear for all sensors tested.

c)I might be misunderstanding the question but you should just multiply the sensitivity values by 2 if you want double the signal. This will increase the volume by 2^3 but is not used to scale the sensitivity file.

remainder) Good point about file format. I think the answer is that Greg developed rsensor for AEC/SPOT and AEC received the sensitivity files from the LRC in the format shown in the manpage. So it is not really a SPOT format as much as it is testing output. Ian Ashdown is proposing an extension to IESNA LM-74-05 to give a formal definition for photosensor test reporting. I am unsure of the status of this right now. Assuming this gets published then maybe a parallel or extension to ies2rad makes sense. Other comments, Zack or Greg?

I hope this is helpful,

Jennifer

···

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Axel Jacobs
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Radiance-general] rsensor file format

I have just measured the spatial response of some of our photocells and
discovered some rather serious deviations from the standard cosine response.

I am looking at the new rsensor tool to model this response, so I can
estimate the errors compared to a proper cosine-corrected cell for
certain configurations. However, the sensor format is not entirely clear
to me.

a) What are the units in the sensor file? Is it normalised to anything?
An IES data file, for instance is normalised to 1000lm.

b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected illuminance
meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum at 1.0 for an angle of
(0,0)?

c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has a correct
cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as is should be.
Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2? Cube
root because the overall response appears to be proportional to the
volume contained within the 3d shape of the curves.

d) After a bit of googling around, I found this page:
http://www.lightingresearch.org/programs/nlpip/publicationdetails.asp?ID=916&type=1

Which appears to be the photosensor report referred to on the SPOT web
site. The NLPIP don't seem to make suggestions about the actual file
format for electronically transmitting the spacial response (or any
other photocell characteristics for that matter). I am therefore
wondering why the rsensor data file is what it is. It seems that the
standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe the
sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the SPOT
format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import filter instead?

Example:

The example from the rsensor man page:
degrees 0 90 180 270
0 .02 .04 .02 .04
45 .01 .02 .01 .02
90 .001 .002 .001 .002

As a Radiance dat file, this would look like (I think):
2
0 270 4
0 90 3
.02 .04 .02 .04
.01 .02 .01 .02
.001 .002 .001 .002

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts

Axel

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Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

Hi Axel,

Good questions about rsensor. I'll answer as I'm able inline...

I am looking at the new rsensor tool to model this response, so I can estimate the errors compared to a proper cosine-corrected cell for certain configurations. However, the sensor format is not entirely clear to me.

a) What are the units in the sensor file? Is it normalised to anything? An IES data file, for instance is normalised to 1000lm.

The sensor file is normalized to 1.0 in arbitrary "response" units. Think of it as a multiplier on the incoming radiance value in each direction.

b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected illuminance meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum at 1.0 for an angle of (0,0)?

Yes to the second question, with 90 degrees being the maximum polar angle, whose value is zero at all azimuths. For this distribution, rsensor will produce horizontal irradiance in watts/m^2, which converts to lux using the standard 179 multiplier. A uniform sky of 100 watts/sr/m^2 would produce a value of 314.16 watts/m^2, or 56235 lux, for example.

c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has a correct cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as is should be. Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2? Cube root because the overall response appears to be proportional to the volume contained within the 3d shape of the curves.

It should be a simple proportion, so multiplying all values by 2.0 should give you what you expect. I just confirmed that it works that way.

d) After a bit of googling around, I found this page:
http://www.lightingresearch.org/programs/nlpip/publicationdetails.asp?ID=916&type=1

Which appears to be the photosensor report referred to on the SPOT web site. The NLPIP don't seem to make suggestions about the actual file format for electronically transmitting the spacial response (or any other photocell characteristics for that matter). I am therefore wondering why the rsensor data file is what it is. It seems that the standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe the sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the SPOT format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import filter instead?

As I understand it, SPOT is an Excel-based program, so putting the data in a format that isn't Excel-friendly didn't really suit Zack Rogers and the other developers. Charles Ehrlich had written an earlier equivalent to rsensor that already used this data format, and since ArchEnergy hired me to develop a more efficient approach, they had the prerogative to specify the input and output.

I hope this helps!
-Greg

Dear Greg, Jennifer,

> The sensor file is normalized to 1.0 in arbitrary "response" units.
> Think of it as a multiplier on the incoming radiance value in each
> direction.

So I shouldn't think of it as an 'inverse' IES file, then. I've just run some simple examples with an ideal cosine data file, and the results do match the one I get from rtrace. Multiplying each value in the matrix with 2.0 gives me twice the illuminance.

I guess that the real question should be 'what do these sensors actually measure?'. It's not lux, because for this they would have to be cosine and v(lamda) corrected, which one could expect from a 500 Pound lux meter, but not from a 5 Pound sensor. I guess it all boils down to the commissioning of the sensors. The only thing we can say with certainty is that they measure 'some sort of radiation thing', which is different in different directions.

So is it correct to assume that SPOT only uses the relative response from the photocells, and not absolute W/m2 or lux values?

>> b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected
>> illuminance meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum
>> at 1.0 for an angle of (0,0)?

> Yes to the second question, with 90 degrees being the maximum polar
> angle, whose value is zero at all azimuths. For this distribution,
> rsensor will produce horizontal irradiance in watts/m^2, which
> converts to lux using the standard 179 multiplier. A uniform sky of
> 100 watts/sr/m^2 would produce a value of 314.16 watts/m^2, or 56235
> lux, for example.

Here is my own cunningly crafted cosine response. Just one column of azimuth values at zero degrees wouldn't work:

degrees 0 90 180 270
0 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000
10 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848
20 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397
30 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660
40 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660
50 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428
60 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000
70 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420
80 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736
90 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000

Does rsensor use a linear interpolation to fill in in-between rows?

>> c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has
>> a correct cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as
>> is should be.
>> Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2?
>> Cube root because the overall response appears to be proportional
>> to the volume contained within the 3d shape of the curves.

> It should be a simple proportion, so multiplying all values by 2.0
> should give you what you expect. I just confirmed that it works
> that way.

I am still puzzled that the response is not proportional to the volume of the shape, or at least the area of the curve. Guess that's just the way it is, and there isn't really any strict photometric or radiometric reason behind this...

>> It seems that the
>> standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe
>> the sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the
>> SPOT format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import
>> filter instead?

> As I understand it, SPOT is an Excel-based program, so putting the
> data in a format that isn't Excel-friendly didn't really suit Zack
> Rogers and the other developers. Charles Ehrlich had written an
> earlier equivalent to rsensor that already used this data format,
> and since ArchEnergy hired me to develop a more efficient approach,
> they had the prerogative to specify the input and output.

This makes perfect sense now.

···

----------------

> so you can download the program and take a look at the files
> and implementation - if you haven't already.

It requires Windows and Excel, and while I have access to a Windows machine, I don't have Excel. Do you plan on making it cross-platform and OpenOffice compatible?

> c)I might be misunderstanding the question but you should just
> multiply the sensitivity values by 2 if you want double the signal.
> This will increase the volume by 2^3 but is not used to scale the
> sensitivity file.

Greg explained this, thanks. I understand it's all relative.

Thank you

Axel

Hello again,

Yes, what the sensor measures is an interesting question, especially since many manufacturers state that their product reads illuminance when it clearly does not. I do not know if this is a big deal for annual energy simulation or commissioning as long as there is a setpoint that allows the photosensor to track workplane illuminance throughout the year. I think it is usually hard to find such a setpoint though, whether it is a cosine response or 'some sort of radiation' signal.

SPOT does allow you to assess the situation (photosensor spatial response, location, etc.) in the design stage by relating signal setpoint (user input) to signal received (rsensor results) and showing the resulting annual workplane illuminance. Illuminance at the sensor, instead of sensor signal, is used to give a commissioning report at the end of a SPOT project. The report assumes a diffuse lighting condition can be created in the space where commissioning will take place. This is because the ratio of illuminance to signal is taken from rtrace and rsensor calcs with just a CIE overcast sky. Oh, and another photocell characteristic to consider is wavelength sensitivity - SPOT does not do this but could cause a larger impact than the spatial distribution in some cases.

I don't know about making SPOT cross-platform, Zack Rogers might be able to answer that. There are some cross-platform python scripts with the download that you might find useful.

It seems to me that rsensor uses a step function to determine which sensitivity value to use but maybe Greg can straighten me out on this too or explain more.

Also, I apologize for the repetitive post earlier. I did not see Greg's until later. Thanks! Jennifer

···

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Axel Jacobs
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Radiance-general] Re: rsensor file format

Dear Greg, Jennifer,

> The sensor file is normalized to 1.0 in arbitrary "response" units.
> Think of it as a multiplier on the incoming radiance value in each
> direction.

So I shouldn't think of it as an 'inverse' IES file, then. I've just run
some simple examples with an ideal cosine data file, and the results do
match the one I get from rtrace. Multiplying each value in the matrix
with 2.0 gives me twice the illuminance.

I guess that the real question should be 'what do these sensors actually
measure?'. It's not lux, because for this they would have to be cosine
and v(lamda) corrected, which one could expect from a 500 Pound lux
meter, but not from a 5 Pound sensor. I guess it all boils down to the
commissioning of the sensors. The only thing we can say with certainty
is that they measure 'some sort of radiation thing', which is different
in different directions.

So is it correct to assume that SPOT only uses the relative response
from the photocells, and not absolute W/m2 or lux values?

>> b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected
>> illuminance meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum
>> at 1.0 for an angle of (0,0)?

> Yes to the second question, with 90 degrees being the maximum polar
> angle, whose value is zero at all azimuths. For this distribution,
> rsensor will produce horizontal irradiance in watts/m^2, which
> converts to lux using the standard 179 multiplier. A uniform sky of
> 100 watts/sr/m^2 would produce a value of 314.16 watts/m^2, or 56235
> lux, for example.

Here is my own cunningly crafted cosine response. Just one column of
azimuth values at zero degrees wouldn't work:

degrees 0 90 180 270
0 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000
10 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848
20 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397
30 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660
40 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660
50 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428
60 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000
70 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420
80 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736
90 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000

Does rsensor use a linear interpolation to fill in in-between rows?

>> c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has
>> a correct cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as
>> is should be.
>> Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2?
>> Cube root because the overall response appears to be proportional
>> to the volume contained within the 3d shape of the curves.

> It should be a simple proportion, so multiplying all values by 2.0
> should give you what you expect. I just confirmed that it works
> that way.

I am still puzzled that the response is not proportional to the volume
of the shape, or at least the area of the curve. Guess that's just the
way it is, and there isn't really any strict photometric or radiometric
reason behind this...

>> It seems that the
>> standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe
>> the sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the
>> SPOT format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import
>> filter instead?

> As I understand it, SPOT is an Excel-based program, so putting the
> data in a format that isn't Excel-friendly didn't really suit Zack
> Rogers and the other developers. Charles Ehrlich had written an
> earlier equivalent to rsensor that already used this data format,
> and since ArchEnergy hired me to develop a more efficient approach,
> they had the prerogative to specify the input and output.

This makes perfect sense now.

----------------

> so you can download the program and take a look at the files
> and implementation - if you haven't already.

It requires Windows and Excel, and while I have access to a Windows
machine, I don't have Excel. Do you plan on making it cross-platform and
OpenOffice compatible?

> c)I might be misunderstanding the question but you should just
> multiply the sensitivity values by 2 if you want double the signal.
> This will increase the volume by 2^3 but is not used to scale the
> sensitivity file.

Greg explained this, thanks. I understand it's all relative.

Thank you

Axel

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

Hi Axel,

I'll try not to duplicate what Jennifer said too much -- who, by the way, could not have read my response first (nor I hers) because it was composed on the plane and not sent until later...

> The sensor file is normalized to 1.0 in arbitrary "response" units.
> Think of it as a multiplier on the incoming radiance value in each direction.

So I shouldn't think of it as an 'inverse' IES file, then. I've just run some simple examples with an ideal cosine data file, and the results do match the one I get from rtrace. Multiplying each value in the matrix with 2.0 gives me twice the illuminance.

Yes, it's not really comparable to luminaire data.

I guess that the real question should be 'what do these sensors actually measure?'. It's not lux, because for this they would have to be cosine and v(lamda) corrected, which one could expect from a 500 Pound lux meter, but not from a 5 Pound sensor. I guess it all boils down to the commissioning of the sensors. The only thing we can say with certainty is that they measure 'some sort of radiation thing', which is different in different directions.

Yes -- the spectral response is unknown, and may or may not be important to the sensor output. The rsensor program reports the sensor-weighted sum of RGB radiance values over the hemisphere, and if you have an idea of how to multiply the RGB results based on the spectral sensitivity, you can get a more accurate output.

So is it correct to assume that SPOT only uses the relative response from the photocells, and not absolute W/m2 or lux values?

I think Jennifer answered this pretty well, and she knows more about it than I do.

Here is my own cunningly crafted cosine response. Just one column of azimuth values at zero degrees wouldn't work:

degrees 0 90 180 270
0 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000
10 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848 0.9848
20 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397 0.9397
30 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660 0.8660
40 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660 0.7660
50 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428 0.6428
60 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000 0.5000
70 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420 0.3420
80 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736 0.1736
90 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000

Does rsensor use a linear interpolation to fill in in-between rows?

Yes, effectively. The rsensor program actually inverts the sensor distribution to derive Monte Carlo ray samples, so it's a bit tricky, but amounts to the same.

I am still puzzled that the response is not proportional to the volume of the shape, or at least the area of the curve. Guess that's just the way it is, and there isn't really any strict photometric or radiometric reason behind this...

Radiation as we use it normally is not a volumetric quantity. It can be area-based, but since we report things as a proportion of area (e.g., watts/meter^2), this factors out again. I'm not really sure where you're confused, since there are so many things that are confusing about lighting units. I spent months in the beginning trying to get my head around them.

Cheers,
-Greg

Greg,

Radiation as we use it normally is not a volumetric quantity. It can
be area-based, but since we report things as a proportion of area
(e.g., watts/meter^2), this factors out again. I'm not really sure
where you're confused, since there are so many things that are
confusing about lighting units. I spent months in the beginning
trying to get my head around them.

By 'volume' I mean the solid of revolution described by the intensity values. However, I've just read up on this in Walsh: "Photometry", 1958:

"It might at first be thought that the total luminous flux given by a source could be found from the area of the polar curve, or the volume of its solid of revolution about the 0-180 deg axis. But a moment's consideration will show that this is not the case."

This is where I was coming from. After a lot longer than just one moment's consideration, I stand corrected.

Let theta be the altitude (zenith, nadir) angle, and phi be the azimuth angle. I is the intensity.

The total flux, assuming rotational symmetry of the 3d curve around the nadir-zenith axis (I(theta) is not a function of phi), is

integral(zero, 2pi) integral(zero, pi) I(theta) sin(theta) d theta d phi,

which is

2pi integral I(theta) sin(theta) d theta,

in other words, there is a simple linear relation between flux F and I(theta):

F is proportional to I(theta).

So much to light emitters (IES data), and receivers are identical but the other way 'round. Simple, really...

q.e.d.

Other than to myself, I hope I didn't cause too much confusion.

Cheers

Axel

I have just measured the spatial response of some of our photocells and discovered some rather serious deviations from the standard cosine response.

I am looking at the new rsensor tool to model this response, so I can estimate the errors compared to a proper cosine-corrected cell for certain configurations. However, the sensor format is not entirely clear to me.

a) What are the units in the sensor file? Is it normalised to anything? An IES data file, for instance is normalised to 1000lm.

b) What would the sensor file for a normal, cosine corrected illuminance meter look like? Does it need to have its maximum at 1.0 for an angle of (0,0)?

c) Suppose I wanted to model an illuminance meter that has a correct cosine response, but gives a reading twice as high as is should be. Would I need to multiply the values from b) by the cube root of 2? Cube root because the overall response appears to be proportional to the volume contained within the 3d shape of the curve.

d) After a bit of googling around, I found this page:
http://www.lightingresearch.org/programs/nlpip/publicationdetails.asp?ID=916&type=1

Which appears to be the photosensor report referred to on the SPOT web site. The NLPIP don't seem to make suggestions about the actual file format for electronically transmitting the spacial response (or any other photocell characteristics for that matter). I am therefore wondering why the rsensor data file is what it is. It seems that the standard Radiance data file would have been sufficient to describe the sensor's characteristics. What is the advantage of using the SPOT format? Why not have a spot2rad (similar to ies2rad) import filter instead?

Example:

The example from the rsensor man page:
degrees 0 90 180 270
0 .02 .04 .02 .04
45 .01 .02 .01 .02
90 .001 .002 .001 .002

As a Radiance dat file, this would look like (I think):
2
0 270 4
0 90 3
.02 .04 .02 .04
.01 .02 .01 .02
.001 .002 .001 .002

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts

Axel

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