material models [Was: Daylight simulation for Multi-Layer ETFE Pillows]

Hi Mostapha

as Lars said, it depends on the required exactness of your simulation.
Btw, 'glass' has the index of refraction as an optional 4th parameter.

As an approximation, choose a material and its parameters and/or use function files "by eye". If the resulting image looks right, - job done. However, that leaves the question why bother with Radiance and its complexity in the first place, considering that other renderers are perceived as being much friendlier to the user.

Measurements on the light scattering (BSDF) of a material take out the guess work, but are generally associated with costs. A number of companies sell different equipment and a number of companies offer measurement services (me included). Choosing a Radiance material is then based on solid data and the resulting model comes with a known error budget.

Or you can enquire about existing scattering data with the manufacturer of the product,- which you probably already have done in your case.

Otherwise, LBNL is building a database on window materials, so your product may already be in it.

And, if I may say so, the recently posted review (http://www.pab.eu/docs/Review_of_simulating_four_classes_of_window_materials_for_daylighting_with_non-standard_BSDF_using_simulation_program_Radiance.pdf) has all currently available Radiance window materials in one place. Including the every-now-and-then asked question about the difference between trans and transfunc. "Window" materials in this context means anything transmissive or translucent, so it is not specific to the usual coated, non-scattering panes . This compilation was started in March, when I realized I had already asked the same specific question to Greg in April 1995. So it started as a notebook to remind me of details, - maybe this list is useful to others too.

hope that helps, have a nice weekend,
best
Peter

···

On 07/19/13 10:16, Lars O. Grobe wrote:

Hi Mostapha,

it depends on what results you are looking for.

If you need a useful model of the transmission through your fenestration, you may consider using the glass modifier. There is an error in this, as the refractive index of ETFE is lower (should be 1.4) than that of glass, however, for a clear, thin ETFE film, this may be rather ok for near-normal angles.

In some of the images, the ETFE did not seam to be clear. Probably it hat be printed, or some surface treatment had been applied to roughen it. In this case, you need to model the surface as it is, which has little to do with the pure material properties of ETFE. Probably you need some data on the transmission and reflection, provided by the manufacturer or by your own measurements. That would allow you to approximate a trans / transfunc material to your sample.

If you want to model something like patterns, where parts of the surface are printed and others are not, you can use mixfunc and mix the surface material with a clear ETFE material.

The multiple internal reflections would be accounted for when directly looking at the pillow. Bright spots by such reflections e.g. on a ceiling or wall would not appear. That would require secondary light sources (not very useful for the complex geometry), the pmap, or maybe a precalculated BSDF of one pillow.

Cheers, Lars.
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Hi Peter,

Thank you so much for your informative email.

I hope the material provider has already the measurements done so I can use
their measurements for the study. I'm not sure though.

I have used .xml files generated by Window for a study before however in
that case the surfaces were planar so I generated the file for the glazing
construction and applied it to a single surface. In this case though I have
non-planar surfaces with a different pattern on top of each one which makes
it a different case.

Also thank you for the link to the paper. I looked at it when you sent it
out first and I found it really useful. It is a really comprehensive
review. Thank you so much for sharing.

Have a great weekend!

Best,
Mostapha

···

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Peter Apian-Bennewitz <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Mostapha

as Lars said, it depends on the required exactness of your simulation.
Btw, 'glass' has the index of refraction as an optional 4th parameter.

As an approximation, choose a material and its parameters and/or use
function files "by eye". If the resulting image looks right, - job done.
However, that leaves the question why bother with Radiance and its
complexity in the first place, considering that other renderers are
perceived as being much friendlier to the user.

Measurements on the light scattering (BSDF) of a material take out the
guess work, but are generally associated with costs. A number of companies
sell different equipment and a number of companies offer measurement
services (me included). Choosing a Radiance material is then based on solid
data and the resulting model comes with a known error budget.

Or you can enquire about existing scattering data with the manufacturer of
the product,- which you probably already have done in your case.

Otherwise, LBNL is building a database on window materials, so your
product may already be in it.

And, if I may say so, the recently posted review (http://www.pab.eu/docs/*
*Review_of_simulating_four_**classes_of_window_materials_**
for_daylighting_with_non-**standard_BSDF_using_**
simulation_program_Radiance.**pdf<http://www.pab.eu/docs/Review_of_simulating_four_classes_of_window_materials_for_daylighting_with_non-standard_BSDF_using_simulation_program_Radiance.pdf>)
has all currently available Radiance window materials in one place.
Including the every-now-and-then asked question about the difference
between trans and transfunc. "Window" materials in this context means
anything transmissive or translucent, so it is not specific to the usual
coated, non-scattering panes . This compilation was started in March, when
I realized I had already asked the same specific question to Greg in April
1995. So it started as a notebook to remind me of details, - maybe this
list is useful to others too.

hope that helps, have a nice weekend,
best
Peter

On 07/19/13 10:16, Lars O. Grobe wrote:

Hi Mostapha,

it depends on what results you are looking for.

If you need a useful model of the transmission through your fenestration,
you may consider using the glass modifier. There is an error in this, as
the refractive index of ETFE is lower (should be 1.4) than that of glass,
however, for a clear, thin ETFE film, this may be rather ok for near-normal
angles.

In some of the images, the ETFE did not seam to be clear. Probably it hat
be printed, or some surface treatment had been applied to roughen it. In
this case, you need to model the surface as it is, which has little to do
with the pure material properties of ETFE. Probably you need some data on
the transmission and reflection, provided by the manufacturer or by your
own measurements. That would allow you to approximate a trans / transfunc
material to your sample.

If you want to model something like patterns, where parts of the surface
are printed and others are not, you can use mixfunc and mix the surface
material with a clear ETFE material.

The multiple internal reflections would be accounted for when directly
looking at the pillow. Bright spots by such reflections e.g. on a ceiling
or wall would not appear. That would require secondary light sources (not
very useful for the complex geometry), the pmap, or maybe a precalculated
BSDF of one pillow.

Cheers, Lars.
______________________________**_________________
Radiance-general mailing list
Radiance-general@radiance-**online.org<[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.**org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-**general<http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general>

--
pab advanced technologies Ltd, http://www.pab.eu

______________________________**_________________
Radiance-general mailing list
Radiance-general@radiance-**online.org<[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.**org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-**general<http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general>