glaze script limitation

Hi everyone,

I would like to model a double glazing system like the following:

first pane
surface 1: Crystal gray (Optics database number: 3056)
surface 2: Crystal gray with a SunGuard Ag 43 coating (Optics: 3156)

second pane
surface 3: Clear glass with a SunGuard SuperNeutral (SN) 62 coating (Optics: 3116)
surface 4: Clear glass (Optics: 3016)

Using the Optics2glazedb script provided by Jack de Valpine, I'm able to create a custom database which contain all of the above surfaces/layers and can be read by the Glaze script.

However, the Glaze script, used to combine the surfaces and generate a usable material definition, force the user to select at least one clear glass to compose each pane (surface 1 or 2 must be clear AND surface 3 or 4 must be clear). Moreover, the clear glass must be the same for both panes and must be the first one on the list provided when running the Glaze script.

My question is:
If I bypass the ''if structures'' constraining the composition of the panes in order to allow the selection of two different uncoated glass, can I expect the output to be still valid ?

...
#if ($s1t != 1 && $s2t != 1) then
                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"
                #exit 1
#endif
...

...
#if ($s3t != 1 && $s4t != 1) then
                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"
                #exit 1
#endif
...

Without such bypass, generating a glazing system like the one described above seems impossible.

Thanks in advance for your help,

···

_____________________________________________________________
François Cantin, M Arch, MSc Arch

Hudon Julien associes,
1175 Lavigerie, suite 400, Ste-Foy(Québec) G1V 4P1
Tél: (418) 653-8484 #224, Fax:(418) 653-6189
E-mail: fcantin@hudonjulien.com<mailto:fcantin@hudonjulien.com>
Site web: www.hudonjulien.com<http://www.hudonjulien.com/>
P Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement

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This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please send it back to the person that sent it to you. Unauthorized publication, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email and its associated attachments is strictly prohibited.

Hi François,

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to change the way the glaze script works regarding its requirement that one surface be uncoated glass.

The trouble is one of combinatorics. Unless we incorporate a database containing all the possible front and back coating combinations, or a model like Optics has for computing the combined effect, we can't produce the correct output. What we really need is a more general glazing modeler that can account for every possible configuration and produces a reliable Radiance material. Maybe Window6 will provide this at some point, but we aren't there, yet.

As you suggest, it would be nice to have at least the ability to give a single-pane glazing as part of a dual-paned system as something precomputed by Optics, but I don't think you can just substitute values in the database and get it to work. You'd have to reprogram the script a bit, and that's not a very inviting prospect....

-Greg

···

From: François Cantin <FCantin@hudonjulien.com>
Date: December 14, 2010 2:47:18 PM PST

Hi everyone,

I would like to model a double glazing system like the following:

first pane

surface 1: Crystal gray (Optics database number: 3056)

surface 2: Crystal gray with a SunGuard Ag 43 coating (Optics: 3156)

second pane

surface 3: Clear glass with a SunGuard SuperNeutral (SN) 62 coating (Optics: 3116)

surface 4: Clear glass (Optics: 3016)

Using the Optics2glazedb script provided by Jack de Valpine, I'm able to create a custom database which contain all of the above surfaces/layers and can be read by the Glaze script.

However, the Glaze script, used to combine the surfaces and generate a usable material definition, force the user to select at least one clear glass to compose each pane (surface 1 or 2 must be clear AND surface 3 or 4 must be clear). Moreover, the clear glass must be the same for both panes and must be the first one on the list provided when running the Glaze script.

My question is:

If I bypass the ''if structures'' constraining the composition of the panes in order to allow the selection of two different uncoated glass, can I expect the output to be still valid ?

...

#if ($s1t != 1 && $s2t != 1) then

                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"

                #exit 1

#endif

...

...

#if ($s3t != 1 && $s4t != 1) then

                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"

                #exit 1

#endif

...

Without such bypass, generating a glazing system like the one described above seems impossible.

Thanks in advance for your help,

_____________________________________________________________

François Cantin, M Arch, MSc Arch
                                                  
Hudon Julien associes,

1175 Lavigerie, suite 400, Ste-Foy(Québec) G1V 4P1
Tél: (418) 653-8484 #224, Fax:(418) 653-6189
E-mail: fcantin@hudonjulien.com
Site web: www.hudonjulien.com

P Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement

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This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please send it back to the person that sent it to you. Unauthorized publication, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email and its associated attachments is strictly prohibited.

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Hi all!

The trouble is one of combinatorics. Unless we incorporate a
database containing all the possible front and back coating
combinations, or a model like Optics has for computing the combined
effect, we can't produce the correct output. What we really need is
a more general glazing modeler that can account for every possible
configuration and produces a reliable Radiance material. Maybe
Window6 will provide this at some point, but we aren't there, yet.

A related question... is anyone aware of tools compareable to Optics and Window that follow a more open approach of software? I have to boot into a Windows installation (and Windows does not easily boot in virtual machines any more since Vista) each time I want to start one of these tools, which even require administrator rights to install on a Windows machine. Unfortunately it looks as no attempt had been made at all during development to separate the database, calculation and GUI/controller code, so I do not expect these tools to become more open or platform independent. So did you ever come accross any development in these fields?

Cheers, Lars.

Dear Lars

one tool that may possibly be a bit more open is WIS. In any case, off and
on there is an error message from a "solver". However, I have no idea if the
code would be accessible. WIS originated from a european project and so the
code may be available to people affiliated to european research institutes.

Best
Achim

--------- Original-Nachricht --------

···

Von: "Radiance general discussion"
An: "Radiance general discussion"
Betreff: Re: [Radiance-general] glaze script limitation
Datum: 15/12/10 13:15

Hi all!

> The trouble is one of combinatorics. Unless we incorporate a
> database containing all the possible front and back coating
> combinations, or a model like Optics has for computing the combined
> effect, we can&#39;t produce the correct output. What we really need is
> a more general glazing modeler that can account for every possible
> configuration and produces a reliable Radiance material. Maybe
> Window6 will provide this at some point, but we aren&#39;t there, yet.

A related question... is anyone aware of tools compareable to Optics and
Window that follow a more open approach of software? I have to boot into
a Windows installation (and Windows does not easily boot in virtual
machines any more since Vista) each time I want to start one of these
tools, which even require administrator rights to install on a Windows
machine. Unfortunately it looks as no attempt had been made at all
during development to separate the database, calculation and
GUI/controller code, so I do not expect these tools to become more open
or platform independent. So did you ever come accross any development in
these fields?

Cheers, Lars.

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Radiance-general@radiance-online.org
(mailto:Radiance-general@radiance-online.org" class="autolink)
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
(http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general"
target="_blank" class="autolink)

Hi Francois,

As Greg pointed out, using different clear glass specifications for each layer would really complicate things. Note the "clear" glass specification is really to establish a default reflectance and transmittance for the uncoated faced in the system. Color, Rf, Rb and Transmittance are derived from the other specifications (eg for SunGuard Ag 43 or SunGuard SN 62) in this case. Have you tried defining a material based on the exported data from Optics?

Here is what I did:

Export individually from Optics:

SGAG43Y6.grd (3156)
SGSN62C6.grd (3116)
Clear_60.GRD (3016)

Then get photopic T, Rf and Rb for reference from Optics 5 for the whole IGU:

    Rf = .178
    Rb = .107
    T = .228

Note that the script (optics2glazedb) is very strict on formatting. So the naming in Clear_60.rad:

    Clear_60_glass
    Clear_60_front
    Clear_60_back

needs to have the first "_" removed to result in:

    Clear60_glass
    Clear60_front
    Clear60_back

I suppose this could easily enough be fixed with a call to awk or perl to fix this type of thing on the fly.

Now with Clear_60 fixed do:

    optics2glazedb Clear_60.rad SGAG43Y6.rad SGSN62C6.rad > francois.db

Now run glaze:

    glaze -f francois.db

    build a 2 pane system as follows:

       1. Clear60
       2. SGAG43Y6
       3. SGSN62C6
       4. Clear60

This results in the following definition:

···

############################################
    # Glazing produced by Radiance glaze script
    # $Revision: 2.8 $
    # Loaded: francois.db
    # Wed Dec 15 11:14:23 EST 2010
    # Material surface normal points to interior
    # Number of panes in system: 2
    # Exterior surface s1 type: Clear60
    # Inner surface s2 type: SGAG43Y6
    # Inner surface s3 type: SGSN62C6
    # Interior surface s4 type: Clear60
    # Exterior normal hemispherical reflectance: 0.177978104
    # Interior normal hemispherical reflectance: 0.108662425
    # Normal hemispherical transmittance: 0.225458181
    #
    void BRTDfunc francois
    10
    if(Rdot,cr(fr(0.052),ft(0.664),fr(0.083)),cr(fr(0.145),ft(0.295),fr(0.036)))
    if(Rdot,cr(fr(0.076),ft(0.708),fr(0.067)),cr(fr(0.177),ft(0.339),fr(0.076)))
    if(Rdot,cr(fr(0.11),ft(0.604),fr(0.162)),cr(fr(0.211),ft(0.333),fr(0.113)))
    ft(0.664)*ft(0.295)
    ft(0.708)*ft(0.339)
    ft(0.604)*ft(0.333)
         0 0 0
         glaze2.cal
    0
    9
         0 0 0

Although I am not sure what kind of rounding error is acceptable in this case, the hemispherical front/back reflectances and transmittance seem to be well in the ballpark. If you want to go further you can look at color, reflectance, and transmittance with a simple scene using a glow source with unit radiance (eg 1 1 1). Doing this yields measures as follows:

    Rf = .181
    Rb = .109
    T = .227

So here is what we get in summary:

  Optics Calculated
  Radiance Glaze Calculated
  Radiance Rpict Measured
Rf
  .178
  .181
Rb
  .107
  .109
T
  .228
  .225
  .227

A further piece of information that might be interesting is to obtain the manufacturers calculated photopic Rf, Rb, and T for the system. I have noticed that there can be small discrepancies between performance data on sites and what Optics calculates.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

-Jack de Valpine

--
# Jack de Valpine
# president
#
# visarc incorporated
# http://www.visarc.com
#
# channeling technology for superior design and construction

On 12/14/2010 5:47 PM, François Cantin wrote:

Hi everyone,

I would like to model a double glazing system like the following:

first pane

surface 1: Crystal gray (Optics database number: 3056)

surface 2: Crystal gray with a SunGuard Ag 43 coating (Optics: 3156)

second pane

surface 3: Clear glass with a SunGuard SuperNeutral (SN) 62 coating (Optics: 3116)

surface 4: Clear glass (Optics: 3016)

Using the Optics2glazedb script provided by Jack de Valpine, I'm able to create a custom database which contain all of the above surfaces/layers and can be read by the Glaze script.

However, the Glaze script, used to combine the surfaces and generate a usable material definition, force the user to select at least one clear glass to compose each pane (surface 1 or 2 must be clear AND surface 3 or 4 must be clear). Moreover, the clear glass must be the same for both panes and must be the first one on the list provided when running the Glaze script.

My question is:

If I bypass the ''if structures'' constraining the composition of the panes in order to allow the selection of two different uncoated glass, can I expect the output to be still valid ?

/.../

/#if ($s1t != 1 && $s2t != 1) then/

/ #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"/

///#exit 1/

/#endif/

/.../

//

//

/.../

/#if ($s3t != 1 && $s4t != 1) then/

/ #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"/

///#exit 1/

/#endif/

/.../

Without such bypass, generating a glazing system like the one described above seems impossible.

Thanks in advance for your help,

_____________________________________________________________

*François Cantin, M Arch, MSc Arch
*
*Hudon Julien* associes,

1175 Lavigerie, suite 400, Ste-Foy(Québec) G1V 4P1
Tél: (418) 653-8484 #224, Fax:(418) 653-6189
E-mail: fcantin@hudonjulien.com <mailto:fcantin@hudonjulien.com>
Site web: www.hudonjulien.com <http://www.hudonjulien.com/>

*P**Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement*

/Ce message électronique et tous les fichiers attachés qu'il contient sont confidentiels et destinés exclusivement à l'usage de la personne à laquelle ils sont adressés. Si vous avez reçu ce message par erreur, merci de le retourner à son émetteur. La publication, l'usage, la distribution, l'impression ou la copie non autorisée de ce message et des attachements qu'il contient sont strictement interdits.

//This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please send it back to the person that sent it to you. Unauthorized publication, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email and its associated attachments is strictly prohibited./

_______________________________________________
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Jack, Greg,

Many thanks for your help with the scripts.

Your countless hours of devotion to the Radiance community and your advices are more than appreciated...... !!!!!!!!!!!!!

François

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Ward [mailto:gregoryjward@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 7:08 PM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] glaze script limitation

Hi François,

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to change the way the glaze script works regarding its requirement that one surface be uncoated glass.

The trouble is one of combinatorics. Unless we incorporate a database containing all the possible front and back coating combinations, or a model like Optics has for computing the combined effect, we can't produce the correct output. What we really need is a more general glazing modeler that can account for every possible configuration and produces a reliable Radiance material. Maybe Window6 will provide this at some point, but we aren't there, yet.

As you suggest, it would be nice to have at least the ability to give a single-pane glazing as part of a dual-paned system as something precomputed by Optics, but I don't think you can just substitute values in the database and get it to work. You'd have to reprogram the script a bit, and that's not a very inviting prospect....

-Greg

From: François Cantin <FCantin@hudonjulien.com>
Date: December 14, 2010 2:47:18 PM PST

Hi everyone,

I would like to model a double glazing system like the following:

first pane

surface 1: Crystal gray (Optics database number: 3056)

surface 2: Crystal gray with a SunGuard Ag 43 coating (Optics: 3156)

second pane

surface 3: Clear glass with a SunGuard SuperNeutral (SN) 62 coating (Optics: 3116)

surface 4: Clear glass (Optics: 3016)

Using the Optics2glazedb script provided by Jack de Valpine, I'm able to create a custom database which contain all of the above surfaces/layers and can be read by the Glaze script.

However, the Glaze script, used to combine the surfaces and generate a usable material definition, force the user to select at least one clear glass to compose each pane (surface 1 or 2 must be clear AND surface 3 or 4 must be clear). Moreover, the clear glass must be the same for both panes and must be the first one on the list provided when running the Glaze script.

My question is:

If I bypass the ''if structures'' constraining the composition of the panes in order to allow the selection of two different uncoated glass, can I expect the output to be still valid ?

...

#if ($s1t != 1 && $s2t != 1) then

                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"

                #exit 1

#endif

...

...

#if ($s3t != 1 && $s4t != 1) then

                #echo "One surface of each pane must be $sn_arr[1]"

                #exit 1

#endif

...

Without such bypass, generating a glazing system like the one described above seems impossible.

Thanks in advance for your help,

_____________________________________________________________

François Cantin, M Arch, MSc Arch
                                                  
Hudon Julien associes,

1175 Lavigerie, suite 400, Ste-Foy(Québec) G1V 4P1
Tél: (418) 653-8484 #224, Fax:(418) 653-6189
E-mail: fcantin@hudonjulien.com
Site web: www.hudonjulien.com

P Avant d'imprimer, pensez à l'environnement

Ce message électronique et tous les fichiers attachés qu'il contient sont confidentiels et destinés exclusivement à l'usage de la personne à laquelle ils sont adressés. Si vous avez reçu ce message par erreur, merci de le retourner à son émetteur. La publication, l'usage, la distribution, l'impression ou la copie non autorisée de ce message et des attachements qu'il contient sont strictement interdits.

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please send it back to the person that sent it to you. Unauthorized publication, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email and its associated attachments is strictly prohibited.

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_______________________________________________
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Hi François,

I gave this a little more thought after letting the problem sink in, and I don't see now why you couldn't do as you suggested and add a glazing to the database that contains your desired properties. You would have to "lie" and tell the script that one of your two surfaces was glass, then pick your new entry as the other surface, but the result should be accurate. The glaze script actually ends up using the specified non-glass surface parameters in its calculations -- the glass surface is just there as a reference.

The other thing I said is still true -- namely, that we can't practically offer all the possible pairings of surface coatings because they would balloon the database, but if you don't mind adding your own, I don't see why you can't do it that way with the current script. We probably should offer an option to enter custom transmittances and front & back reflectance values for advanced users, and this wouldn't be too difficult to add. I wonder if we could take pasted output from Optics, directly? I don't know if they have a format that gives us the naked data, but I suppose we could extract it from the Optics output for Radiance.

Best,
-Greg

···

From: François Cantin <FCantin@hudonjulien.com>
Date: December 16, 2010 7:40:06 AM PST

Jack, Greg,

Many thanks for your help with the scripts.

Your countless hours of devotion to the Radiance community and your advices are more than appreciated...... !!!!!!!!!!!!!

François

Hi Greg and Francois,

Greg, would it work to just make sure that one surface of any layer is "uncoated" (eg where Rf == Rb perhaps withing some small error range) rather than "clear"? Thus allowing for different clear/uncoated glass to be used as surfaces on different layers?

-Jack

···

--
# Jack de Valpine
# president
#
# visarc incorporated
# http://www.visarc.com
#
# channeling technology for superior design and construction

On 12/16/2010 11:01 AM, Gregory J. Ward wrote:

Hi François,

I gave this a little more thought after letting the problem sink in, and I don't see now why you couldn't do as you suggested and add a glazing to the database that contains your desired properties. You would have to "lie" and tell the script that one of your two surfaces was glass, then pick your new entry as the other surface, but the result should be accurate. The glaze script actually ends up using the specified non-glass surface parameters in its calculations -- the glass surface is just there as a reference.

The other thing I said is still true -- namely, that we can't practically offer all the possible pairings of surface coatings because they would balloon the database, but if you don't mind adding your own, I don't see why you can't do it that way with the current script. We probably should offer an option to enter custom transmittances and front& back reflectance values for advanced users, and this wouldn't be too difficult to add. I wonder if we could take pasted output from Optics, directly? I don't know if they have a format that gives us the naked data, but I suppose we could extract it from the Optics output for Radiance.

Best,
-Greg

From: François Cantin<FCantin@hudonjulien.com>
Date: December 16, 2010 7:40:06 AM PST

Jack, Greg,

Many thanks for your help with the scripts.

Your countless hours of devotion to the Radiance community and your advices are more than appreciated...... !!!!!!!!!!!!!

François

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
Radiance-general@radiance-online.org
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

Hi Jack,

Would this really solve the problem? Logically, it makes sense to allow the "clear" glass to be any uncoated glazing, but the way it's currently used in the script, it only serves as a reference point. In fact, the first entry isn't used unless both surfaces of a pane are given as "clear". The trouble, as I said, is that any coating on a different sort of glazing requires measurements of that _combination_. I don't know how to compute the combined effect in the original example, below:

I would like to model a double glazing system like the following:

first pane
surface 1: Crystal gray (Optics database number: 3056)
surface 2: Crystal gray with a SunGuard Ag 43 coating (Optics: 3156)

For this, we need to employ Optics or Window 6 or extract their simulation engine. What I was suggesting instead is that we permit the user to enter the transmittance and reflectances from Optics for the desired pane, substituting this for the database values we would normally use. It sort of breaks the current interaction model for the user interface, but it would allow a little more flexibility as a benefit.

Does this make sense?

-Greg

P.S. We can take this conversation offline or move it to dev if you like -- I'm not sure if it's of general interest to others on the list.

···

---------------------------

From: Jack de Valpine <jedev@visarc.com>
Date: December 16, 2010 8:17:52 AM PST

Hi Greg and Francois,

Greg, would it work to just make sure that one surface of any layer is "uncoated" (eg where Rf == Rb perhaps withing some small error range) rather than "clear"? Thus allowing for different clear/uncoated glass to be used as surfaces on different layers?

-Jack

On 12/16/2010 11:01 AM, Gregory J. Ward wrote:

Hi François,

I gave this a little more thought after letting the problem sink in, and I don't see now why you couldn't do as you suggested and add a glazing to the database that contains your desired properties. You would have to "lie" and tell the script that one of your two surfaces was glass, then pick your new entry as the other surface, but the result should be accurate. The glaze script actually ends up using the specified non-glass surface parameters in its calculations -- the glass surface is just there as a reference.

The other thing I said is still true -- namely, that we can't practically offer all the possible pairings of surface coatings because they would balloon the database, but if you don't mind adding your own, I don't see why you can't do it that way with the current script. We probably should offer an option to enter custom transmittances and front& back reflectance values for advanced users, and this wouldn't be too difficult to add. I wonder if we could take pasted output from Optics, directly? I don't know if they have a format that gives us the naked data, but I suppose we could extract it from the Optics output for Radiance.

Best,
-Greg

Hi Greg!

script. We probably should offer an option to enter custom
transmittances and front& back reflectance values for advanced
users, and this wouldn't be too difficult to add. I wonder if we
could take pasted output from Optics, directly? I don't know if they
have a format that gives us the naked data, but I suppose we could
extract it from the Optics output for Radiance.

I guess you are referring to the measured (spectrally resolved) reflectance and transmittance data in the International Glazing DataBase (IGDB) that is used by Optics? I have no idea why, but the data comes as a MS Access database file. It is possible to open such files using various open source tools, e.g. I managed to load it into Openoffice. The database contains one table called GlazingProperties which is probably the one to look for.

Actually I wonder whether one should hint the developers at migrating that database to some SQL. That would not only make it possible to connect other tools easily, but also would allow the maintainers to update records of their database without redistributing the whole huge download. That is actually what network connectivity of databases was made for.

Cheers, Lars.