different values in test.rad and test_material.rad

Todor_Syarov · October 1, 2014, 1:43pm

Hello,
  trying to look through Daysim process a bit.
  I see the material my daysim file uses is test_material.rad Yet it has a different value than my test.rad file.
  Im concerned there´s a mistake somewhere.

  How would you proceed in this case?
test_material.rad void glass GenerigSingleGlazing58 0 0 3 0.6134 0.6134 0.6134
  test.rad: void glass GenerigSingleGlazing58 0 0 3 0.570 0.632 0.632
  Kind Regards, Niya

Christopher_Rush · October 1, 2014, 3:00pm

The behavior you note appears to be the typical process of Daysim’s subprocesses.

Daysim automatically splits all materials into a separate file as you’ve found, particularly if your materials and geometry in your scene are originally combined within files. Daysim also converts tinted materials (e.g. unequal red, green, blue values) into the average of the RGB channels for a grey scene – presumably to limit data processing to a single channel for simplification.

···

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Todor_Syarov · October 2, 2014, 2:52pm

Hello Christopher Rush,
  Thank you for your thorough reply.
  The file splitting I was expecting. What is concerning me is that the glas material has in both files different values -in the test.rad and test_material.rad files. For this reason, after starting Daysim3.1 I am not sure whether I should correct the test_material.rad values with the ones in the test.rad file and overwrite them.
  What do you think?
  Regards, Niya

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От: Christopher Rush [email protected]

Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad and
test_material.rad

До: DAYSIM discussion

Изпратено на: Сряда, 2014, Октомври 1 18:00:39 EEST

    ;

     The behavior you note appears to be the typical process of Daysim’s subprocesses.

     Daysim automatically splits all materials into a separate file as you’ve found, particularly if your materials and geometry in your scene are originally combined within files. Daysim also converts tinted materials (e.g. unequal red, green, blue values) into the average of the RGB channels for a grey scene – presumably to limit data processing to a single channel for simplification.

···

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Christopher_Rush · October 2, 2014, 3:07pm

You should keep the test_material.rad file unmodified once it’s been generated by Daysim.

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Todor_Syarov · October 2, 2014, 3:17pm

I am afraid there is some misunderstanding. allow me,to render my issue, more explicit:
i am speaking about the files before running Daysim3.1 simulation. Those are the Radiance generated files piped to Daysim.
Those files have different glas material values.

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От: Christopher Rush [email protected]

Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad
and test_material.rad

До: DAYSIM discussion

Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 18:07:37 EEST

;

You should keep the test_material.rad file unmodified once it’s been generated by Daysim.

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Christopher_Rush · October 2, 2014, 4:07pm

Yes, I think I had understood it correctly from your previous explanation…

test.rad is your file prior to any Daysim processing.

test_material.rad is your materials file after importing the model into Daysim but before running a simulation.

The values are different for the Red Green and Blue channels in those two files – because Daysim adjusts the RGB channels automatically to balance them when importing your model into Daysim.

Once you’ve imported your model into Daysim, you should not modify the new material and scene files that Daysim has created, because Daysim specifically tailors these files to be suitable for the math processes used in Daysim (which are subtly different than the mathematical processes in standard radiance tools).

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Todor_Syarov · October 2, 2014, 4:11pm

Thank you ,Christopher.
It is still strange, that they have different values, though.

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От: Christopher Rush [email protected]

Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values
in test.rad and test_material.rad

До: DAYSIM discussion

Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 19:07:10 EEST

    ;

     Yes, I think I had understood it correctly from your previous explanation…

     test.rad is your file prior to any Daysim processing.

     test_material.rad is your materials file after importing the model into Daysim but before running a simulation.

     The values are different for the Red Green and Blue channels in those two files – because Daysim adjusts the RGB channels automatically to balance them when importing your model into Daysim.

     Once you’ve imported your model into Daysim, you should not modify the new material and scene files that Daysim has created, because Daysim specifically tailors these files to be suitable for the math processes used in Daysim (which are subtly different than the mathematical processes in standard radiance tools).

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Andrew_McNeil2 · October 2, 2014, 5:59pm

Todor,

It's not strange when you understand why.

Daysim uses 145 channels to track the daylight coefficients (not including
ground coefficients). Including color would have required 435 channels
which the author probably decided was too much of an increase simulation
time without much benefit. So when you import the model, it converts all
materials to a grey equivalent.

Andy

···

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Todor Syarov <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you ,Christopher.

It is still strange, that they have different values, though.

-------- Оригинално писмо --------
От: Christopher Rush [email protected]
Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad and
test_material.rad
До: DAYSIM discussion <[email protected]>
Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 19:07:10 EEST

Yes, I think I had understood it correctly from your previous
explanation…

test.rad is your file prior to any Daysim processing.

test_material.rad is your materials file after importing the model into
Daysim but before running a simulation.

The values are different for the Red Green and Blue channels in those two
files – because Daysim adjusts the RGB channels automatically to balance
them when importing your model into Daysim.

Once you’ve imported your model into Daysim, you should not modify the new
material and scene files that Daysim has created, because Daysim
specifically tailors these files to be suitable for the math processes used
in Daysim (which are subtly different than the mathematical processes in
standard radiance tools).

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Christoph_Reinhart · October 4, 2014, 3:52pm

Thank is correct Andy. The conversion from RGB to gray is done using the V-lambda luminous response curve of the human eye.

Christoph

···

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On Oct 2, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Andrew McNeil <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Todor,

It's not strange when you understand why.

Daysim uses 145 channels to track the daylight coefficients (not including ground coefficients). Including color would have required 435 channels which the author probably decided was too much of an increase simulation time without much benefit. So when you import the model, it converts all materials to a grey equivalent.

Andy

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Todor Syarov <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Thank you ,Christopher.

It is still strange, that they have different values, though.

-------- Оригинално писмо --------
От: Christopher Rush [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad and test_material.rad
До: DAYSIM discussion <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 19:07:10 EEST

Yes, I think I had understood it correctly from your previous explanation…
test.rad is your file prior to any Daysim processing.
test_material.rad is your materials file after importing the model into Daysim but before running a simulation.
The values are different for the Red Green and Blue channels in those two files – because Daysim adjusts the RGB channels automatically to balance them when importing your model into Daysim.
Once you’ve imported your model into Daysim, you should not modify the new material and scene files that Daysim has created, because Daysim specifically tailors these files to be suitable for the math processes used in Daysim (which are subtly different than the mathematical processes in standard radiance tools).

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Todor_Syarov · October 6, 2014, 1:16pm

I understand now. An analog would be, i suppose, the z depth buffer from maya or 3dmax render engine,
thank you, Andy
Niya

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От: Andrew McNeil [email protected]

Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad and
test_material.rad

До: DAYSIM discussion

Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 20:59:19 EEST

   Todor,

    It's not strange when you understand why.

     Daysim uses 145 channels to track the daylight coefficients (not including ground coefficients). Including color would have required 435 channels which the author probably decided was too much of an increase simulation time without much benefit. So when you import the model, it converts all materials to a grey equivalent.

    Andy

···

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Todor Syarov [email protected] > wrote:

       Thank you ,Christopher.

       It is still strange, that they have different values, though.

-------- Оригинално писмо --------
От: Christopher Rush [email protected]
Относно: Re: [Radiance-daysim] different values in test.rad and test_material.rad
До: DAYSIM discussion [email protected] >
Изпратено на: Четвъртък, 2014, Октомври 2 19:07:10 EEST

            Yes, I think I had understood it correctly from your previous explanation…

            test.rad is your file prior to any Daysim processing.

            test_material.rad is your materials file after importing the model into Daysim but before running a simulation.

            The values are different for the Red Green and Blue channels in those two files – because Daysim adjusts the RGB channels automatically to balance them when importing your model into Daysim.

            Once you’ve imported your model into Daysim, you should not modify the new material and scene files that Daysim has created, because Daysim specifically tailors these files to be suitable for the math processes used in Daysim (which are subtly different than the mathematical processes in standard radiance tools).

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