Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

radiance-general
1

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an *outdoor daylighting test facility*.

I am trying to evaluate the *minimum depth of the lab* in order to be able
to *study redirecting daylight systems* (i.e. light shelves or complex
lamella).

Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling
approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,

Giuseppe.

2

Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes described by you.

Best,

Christoph

···

From: Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an outdoor daylighting test facility.

I am trying to evaluate the minimum depth of the lab in order to be able to study redirecting daylight systems (i.e. light shelves or complex lamella).
Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Giuseppe.

3

Hi Giuseppe,

At LBNL we find that our window test bed (10 feet wide by 15 feet deep)
isn't deep enough to demonstrate all the full benefits of daylight
redirection. In this facility the redirected daylight often hits the back
wall.

Our new FLEXLAB (20 feet wide by 30 feet deep) we believe these dimensions
are deep enough, but we haven't yet tested daylight redirecting systems in
FLEXLAB (coming this spring!).

I like Christoph's suggestion of a standard reference office for testing
systems via simulation. And if physical test cells match the dimensions of
the simulation standard, all the better. A global network of identical test
cells at different institutions would be amazing.

Andy

···

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Christoph Reinhart <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document
http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html
which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes
described by you.

Best,

Christoph

*From:* Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
*To:* Radiance general discussion
*Subject:* [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an *outdoor daylighting test facility*.

I am trying to evaluate the *minimum depth of the lab* in order to be
able to *study redirecting daylight systems* (i.e. light shelves or
complex lamella).

Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these
systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling
approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,

Giuseppe.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

4

For another datapoint, the Research Support Facility here at NREL is rather well daylit, and is 60' deep, but receives light from the north side as well as the south, in addition to heavy use of daylight redirection from the south. From experience (I've had a desk in the middle of this building for the last few years), I'd say that the daylight redirection devices provide useful daylight as far back as 35' under ideal conditions, and on average to 25' from the south wall. These devices can also paint the back wall - 60' away from the source - with daylight! While impressive, I still say that *useful* daylight from those things (i.e. horizontal task illuminance >=250 lux) penetrates 35' or so at most; pretty much about as deep as LBNL's new test space (FLEXLAB).

I also like Christoph's idea for a standard office reference model for simulation; liked it the first time when it was called CIE 171:2006, too. :wink: In all seriousness, I believe this Reinhart et al. model is a great idea -- especially product comparisons in simulation, across climates.

- Rob

···

On 1/22/15, 11:24 AM, "Andrew McNeil" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

At LBNL we find that our window test bed (10 feet wide by 15 feet deep) isn't deep enough to demonstrate all the full benefits of daylight redirection. In this facility the redirected daylight often hits the back wall.

Our new FLEXLAB (20 feet wide by 30 feet deep) we believe these dimensions are deep enough, but we haven't yet tested daylight redirecting systems in FLEXLAB (coming this spring!).

I like Christoph's suggestion of a standard reference office for testing systems via simulation. And if physical test cells match the dimensions of the simulation standard, all the better. A global network of identical test cells at different institutions would be amazing.

Andy

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Christoph Reinhart <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes described by you.

Best,

Christoph

From: Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an outdoor daylighting test facility.

I am trying to evaluate the minimum depth of the lab in order to be able to study redirecting daylight systems (i.e. light shelves or complex lamella).
Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Giuseppe.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

5

Thank you at all for the precious help. We will take in account all your
advices.

In the next weeks I will update you with the project evolution.

Happy weekend,
Giuseppe
For another datapoint, the Research Support Facility here at NREL is rather
well daylit, and is 60' deep, but receives light from the north side as
well as the south, in addition to heavy use of daylight redirection from
the south. From experience (I've had a desk in the middle of this building
for the last few years), I'd say that the daylight redirection devices
provide useful daylight as far back as 35' under ideal conditions, and on
average to 25' from the south wall. These devices can also paint the back
wall - 60' away from the source - with daylight! While impressive, I still
say that *useful* daylight from those things (i.e. horizontal task
illuminance >=250 lux) penetrates 35' or so at most; pretty much about as
deep as LBNL's new test space (FLEXLAB).

I also like Christoph's idea for a standard office reference model for
simulation; liked it the first time when it was called CIE 171:2006, too.
:wink: In all seriousness, I believe this Reinhart et al. model is a great idea
-- especially product comparisons in simulation, across climates.

- Rob

···

On 1/22/15, 11:24 AM, "Andrew McNeil" <[email protected]<mailto: [email protected]>> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

At LBNL we find that our window test bed (10 feet wide by 15 feet deep)
isn't deep enough to demonstrate all the full benefits of daylight
redirection. In this facility the redirected daylight often hits the back
wall.

Our new FLEXLAB (20 feet wide by 30 feet deep) we believe these dimensions
are deep enough, but we haven't yet tested daylight redirecting systems in
FLEXLAB (coming this spring!).

I like Christoph's suggestion of a standard reference office for testing
systems via simulation. And if physical test cells match the dimensions of
the simulation standard, all the better. A global network of identical test
cells at different institutions would be amazing.

Andy

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Christoph Reinhart <[email protected]<mailto: [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document
http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html
which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes
described by you.

Best,

Christoph

From: Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an outdoor daylighting test facility.

I am trying to evaluate the minimum depth of the lab in order to be able to
study redirecting daylight systems (i.e. light shelves or complex lamella).
Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling
approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Giuseppe.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

6

Giuseppe et al

For more details about the FLEXLAB facility you can visit flexlab.lbl.gov
Andy recently completed the first client study in the facility that
involved daylight/energy/glare assessments with glazing, fixed shading,
operable shading etc but not specifically "redirecting" devices- study to
be published later this year; as he noted we expect to be doing new
testing of daylight redirecting systems over the next year.

Some additional examples of prior measuring and modeling of daylight
control and redirecting systems can be captured from
http://facades.lbl.gov/daylighting-systems

The IEA SHC Task 21 on Daylighting published a 260 page book- "Daylight in
Buildings, A Source Book on Daylighting Systems and Components"
You can download a 5MB PDF from our website:
http://buildings.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/daylight-in-buildings.pdf
This is about 15 years old but the sun is much older and both R&D and
practice move slowly so much of the info is still useful. The Appendix in
the report describes 9 test facilities around the world ( as of ~2000) that
do/did daylight testing; with a semi technical description of their
measurement capabilities. We have some extra (physical) copies of the
books on our shelves- if you still like hard bound books and daylight and
are not too far away to send ( they weigh about 5 pounds) I can mail a
copy. There is also a CD-ROM that contains the book and some additional
200MB of related files; I could post that on Dropbox if people are
interested.

Steve

···

**********************************************************************

Stephen Selkowitz

Building Technology and Urban Systems Department (510) 486-5064

Bldg.90-3111
       fax (510) 486-4089

Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
[email protected]

Berkeley, CA 94720
http://buildings.lbl.gov/ <http://BTECH.lbl.gov/>

**********************************************************************

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Giuseppe De Michele <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you at all for the precious help. We will take in account all your
advices.

In the next weeks I will update you with the project evolution.

Happy weekend,
Giuseppe
For another datapoint, the Research Support Facility here at NREL is
rather well daylit, and is 60' deep, but receives light from the north side
as well as the south, in addition to heavy use of daylight redirection from
the south. From experience (I've had a desk in the middle of this building
for the last few years), I'd say that the daylight redirection devices
provide useful daylight as far back as 35' under ideal conditions, and on
average to 25' from the south wall. These devices can also paint the back
wall - 60' away from the source - with daylight! While impressive, I still
say that *useful* daylight from those things (i.e. horizontal task
illuminance >=250 lux) penetrates 35' or so at most; pretty much about as
deep as LBNL's new test space (FLEXLAB).

I also like Christoph's idea for a standard office reference model for
simulation; liked it the first time when it was called CIE 171:2006, too.
:wink: In all seriousness, I believe this Reinhart et al. model is a great idea
-- especially product comparisons in simulation, across climates.

- Rob

On 1/22/15, 11:24 AM, "Andrew McNeil" <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

At LBNL we find that our window test bed (10 feet wide by 15 feet deep)
isn't deep enough to demonstrate all the full benefits of daylight
redirection. In this facility the redirected daylight often hits the back
wall.

Our new FLEXLAB (20 feet wide by 30 feet deep) we believe these dimensions
are deep enough, but we haven't yet tested daylight redirecting systems in
FLEXLAB (coming this spring!).

I like Christoph's suggestion of a standard reference office for testing
systems via simulation. And if physical test cells match the dimensions of
the simulation standard, all the better. A global network of identical test
cells at different institutions would be amazing.

Andy

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Christoph Reinhart <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document
http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html
which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes
described by you.

Best,

Christoph

From: Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an outdoor daylighting test facility.

I am trying to evaluate the minimum depth of the lab in order to be able
to study redirecting daylight systems (i.e. light shelves or complex
lamella).
Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these
systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling
approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Giuseppe.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

7

Hi Steve,

thank you for the literature materials, it is very interesting. And it
could be great if you share the CD-ROM contents. Ragarding the hard copy
shipping, it also could be great but Italy may be out of range. In the mean
time thanks again for the help.

Best,
Giuseppe.

···

2015-01-23 19:58 GMT+01:00 Stephen Selkowitz <[email protected]>:

Giuseppe et al

For more details about the FLEXLAB facility you can visit flexlab.lbl.gov
  Andy recently completed the first client study in the facility that
involved daylight/energy/glare assessments with glazing, fixed shading,
operable shading etc but not specifically "redirecting" devices- study to
be published later this year; as he noted we expect to be doing new
testing of daylight redirecting systems over the next year.

Some additional examples of prior measuring and modeling of daylight
control and redirecting systems can be captured from
http://facades.lbl.gov/daylighting-systems

The IEA SHC Task 21 on Daylighting published a 260 page book- "Daylight in
Buildings, A Source Book on Daylighting Systems and Components"
You can download a 5MB PDF from our website:
http://buildings.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/daylight-in-buildings.pdf
This is about 15 years old but the sun is much older and both R&D and
practice move slowly so much of the info is still useful. The Appendix in
the report describes 9 test facilities around the world ( as of ~2000) that
do/did daylight testing; with a semi technical description of their
measurement capabilities. We have some extra (physical) copies of the
books on our shelves- if you still like hard bound books and daylight and
are not too far away to send ( they weigh about 5 pounds) I can mail a
copy. There is also a CD-ROM that contains the book and some additional
200MB of related files; I could post that on Dropbox if people are
interested.

Steve

**********************************************************************

Stephen Selkowitz

Building Technology and Urban Systems Department (510)
486-5064

Bldg.90-3111
       fax (510) 486-4089

Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
[email protected]

Berkeley, CA 94720
http://buildings.lbl.gov/ <http://BTECH.lbl.gov/>

**********************************************************************

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Giuseppe De Michele <[email protected]> > wrote:

Thank you at all for the precious help. We will take in account all your
advices.

In the next weeks I will update you with the project evolution.

Happy weekend,
Giuseppe
For another datapoint, the Research Support Facility here at NREL is
rather well daylit, and is 60' deep, but receives light from the north side
as well as the south, in addition to heavy use of daylight redirection from
the south. From experience (I've had a desk in the middle of this building
for the last few years), I'd say that the daylight redirection devices
provide useful daylight as far back as 35' under ideal conditions, and on
average to 25' from the south wall. These devices can also paint the back
wall - 60' away from the source - with daylight! While impressive, I still
say that *useful* daylight from those things (i.e. horizontal task
illuminance >=250 lux) penetrates 35' or so at most; pretty much about as
deep as LBNL's new test space (FLEXLAB).

I also like Christoph's idea for a standard office reference model for
simulation; liked it the first time when it was called CIE 171:2006, too.
:wink: In all seriousness, I believe this Reinhart et al. model is a great idea
-- especially product comparisons in simulation, across climates.

- Rob

On 1/22/15, 11:24 AM, "Andrew McNeil" <[email protected]<mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

At LBNL we find that our window test bed (10 feet wide by 15 feet deep)
isn't deep enough to demonstrate all the full benefits of daylight
redirection. In this facility the redirected daylight often hits the back
wall.

Our new FLEXLAB (20 feet wide by 30 feet deep) we believe these
dimensions are deep enough, but we haven't yet tested daylight redirecting
systems in FLEXLAB (coming this spring!).

I like Christoph's suggestion of a standard reference office for testing
systems via simulation. And if physical test cells match the dimensions of
the simulation standard, all the better. A global network of identical test
cells at different institutions would be amazing.

Andy

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Christoph Reinhart <tito_@mit.edu >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Giuseppe,

You might want to have a look at this document
http://mit.edu/sustainabledesignlab/projects/ReferenceOffice/index.html
which describe a reference office that can be used for the purposes
described by you.

Best,

Christoph

From: Giuseppe De Michele [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Radiance general discussion
Subject: [Radiance-general] Depth outdoor daylighting test facility

Dear experts,

I am involved in the design of an outdoor daylighting test facility.

I am trying to evaluate the minimum depth of the lab in order to be able
to study redirecting daylight systems (i.e. light shelves or complex
lamella).
Cell height: 2.7 m and cell width: 5.5 m.

Our idea is to cover, let's say, "90%" of the applications of these
systems.

Do you have experience in that field? Or can you suggest a modeling
approach to answer this question?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Giuseppe.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]<mailto:
[email protected]>
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

--
*Giuseppe De Michele*