Radiance-general Digest, Vol 97, Issue 4

Hi Andy, Rob, Lars

I'd like to endorse the concept of an FAQ for Radiance, but ask for a slightly broader view of the material definitions. They might initially be listed in the Radiance FAQ listing, but preferably they would also be listed in a more general materials database. There is an increasingly intense need for this: http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2005/BS05_0373_380.pdf

We regularly export from SketchUp today to Daysim/Radiance - EnergyPlus and CATT Acoustic. I would love to be able to be sure that what we do with an 'acoustic tile' and its manufacturer's data for our acoustic analysis carries reliable light properties to the Lighting simulation - and that it can be tracked back to its source: http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2009/BS09_1405_1412.pdf Our role as users could well be to rank / rate via social media style techniques the reliability of the data.

If we get these basic steps right then http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2001/BS01_0731_738.pdf we have the basis for quality assurance - believable - simulations in an increasingly integrated (BIM or not) world...

M

PS: XML formatting is an example of how the approach could be implemented. XML /IFC or other formatting is not the issue; associated annotation and internet services based serving of data and associated rating of quality level of the data is.

Michael Donn
Director Centre for Building Performance Research
School of Architecture
Victoria University +64 4 463 6221 work
PO Box 600 +64 21 611 280 mobile
Wellington +64 4 463 6204 work fax
New Zealand +64 21 611 594 mobilefax

···

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2012 11:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Radiance-general Digest, Vol 97, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

   1. the disk of the sun (Michael Martinez)
   2. Re: New Radiance Website (Lars O. Grobe)
   3. Re: New Radiance Website (Andy McNeil)
   4. Re: the disk of the sun (John Mardaljevic)
   5. Re: New Radiance Website (Guglielmetti, Robert)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:00:36 -0800
From: Michael Martinez <[email protected]>
To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: [Radiance-general] the disk of the sun
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi All -

I'm working on a project in which the brightness of the disk of the sun has become a discussion topic.

Using gendaylit set for California's central valley, a view toward clear (smoggy-ish) sunny skies at 8am on September 1 reveals a disk luminance of 987,365,074 cd/m2.

This seems perfectly reasonable, although when I find myself commenting "oh yes, it's about a billion..." I can't help but pause.

Does anyone know of a handy reference for disk luminance based on location and climate? Or better yet, anyone out there with greater math skills than I know how to derive disk luminance from direct normal radiation found in a weather file?

Thanks!

Mike

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 00:03:06 +0200
From: "Lars O. Grobe" <[email protected]>
To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] New Radiance Website
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Andy,

I agree that there is a demand for sharing models. Besides what you mentioned, it is great for educational purpose and for validation. It may even reduce the downloads - if we could remove example scenes from the auxiliary files (errr are they still in there?) and have a makefile not only running oconv and rpict, but fetch model data when needed from a known URL.

For integrating my FAQ-start, I'd be happy to support this. Maybe the formatting would need to be sent through your CSS. Sharing accounts should be rather easy, there are lots of interfaces available in times of social networks (opened? Huuuuh big brother Radiance ;)...). I think we can discuss this off-list (with everyone included who is interested).

For those starting to play around now - please forgive the user-unfriendliness (you may also call it rudeness) of the site in its current stage. I did not plan to make it public yet and posted the address more as a contribution to the discussion. I will do some polishing in the coming days, until then expect it to behave as what it is - still experimental :wink:

Cheers, Lars.

--
Dipl.-Ing. Architect Lars O. Grobe

On Mar 6, 2012, at 19:22, Andy McNeil <[email protected]> wrote:

HI Lars,

I think your comments regarding FAQ's are spot on. I don't want to duplicate effort, so I'd like to let you continue to develop your FAQ and will replace the stub on with a redirection to your site. It would be nice to integrate the two, at least using the same login/passwords.

I agree that models are generally less useful than objects, but I would contend that in the research community there are desires to share and use standard models. I have some Radiance models for DOE prototype buildings that others might like to use. And HMG has 61 models of existing buildings that many have already asked for them to share.

But regardless, we can let users decide which is worth sharing. And taking the lead from your FAQ, we could get rid of the formal categories and instead using tags. If you want to simulate a daylight redirecting system you would probably want to see results for both a cal file and a model of the system.

I'll end by saying - please help!

Andy

On Mar 5, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Lars O. Grobe wrote:

Hi Andy, hi list!

This is a nice framework for an appealing site! I especially like the
fact that the design of the "good old" site could be adopted.

I started setting up something related recently. Not based on Plone
but Drupal, not a complete "Radiance Website" but a concept focussing
on just having a working FAQ one day. You may get an idea here:

http://radiance.larsgrobe.de

The only part of interest on the site is the FAQ for now. I have
spent some time on thinking how to organize a FAQ, and abandoned the
idea of having single categories per question. I believe a tag-system
being much more appropriate, e.g. a question/answer pair on mkillum
might be related to "commands", "diffuse indirect calculation", "complex glazing"
and "optimizations". One day one might decide to also tag the content
on user levels, so a tag "advanced user" might be added. Browsing the
mailing lists, there is such a vast amount of information that I tend
to pay a lot of attention on the topic of marking it. Once a certain
amount of content is available, tag clouds (which may occur in
alphabetical order - I do not rely like the fancy cloud displays
typically rendered with lots of formatting) may be of more help then a fixed hierarchy.

One feature that I spent some time on was to integrate tex notation
into the content management. I added a test on the start page. You
can embed any Latex code in the content, which will be rendered into
inline images, but also be available as pdf downloads. The need to
display formulas and algorithms seams to be of importance. I am going
to add support for describing geometry in the content management, too
- basically I want to keep content descriptive and avoid bitmap
images as far as possible, so that content can be reused (e.g. for
copying the Latex source into a formula editor when writing an
article), reformatted and extended at any time.

On sharing: I think that sharing models is an interesting part of a
community website, though I am not sure that much model content will
become available. Most Radiance models are case-studies - buildings,
rooms, facades. Objects to be shared are more like furniture and
other decorative stuff, not bound to a specific use case - which is
already available on the internat. Similar is true for textures.

I see a need for sharing of cal-files. This would require an
interface where I could check the parameters and get a preview of the
results - downloading the cal-file is easy, using it makes things difficult.

The gallery is a must....

A Radiance material library would be great and is a topic on its own.
I started a concept of holding material data in a database, with
several interfaces to access it. I would prefer the data to be
independent of the software using it, so e.g. I would want spectral
resolutions supported beyond the three RGB channels natively supported by Radiance.

Extracting a Radiance material from this could be implemented in the
interface - combining the measured data from the database with the
assumptions to be made when using it in Radiance (e.g. I would need
to know that the data from the spectrometer are to be used with a
plastic modifier). So a material record could contain a table
"models", where I could add proposed models for various software
tools. So querying the model-table for "Radiance" for this material
would return "plastic", while querying for "MyOtherRenderer" could return "lambertianReflection".

I decided not to publicly announce this project so far, as there is
little content right now. Maybe there is some potential for combining
efforts, so I add this to the discussion.

Cheers, Lars.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:17:14 -0800
From: Andy McNeil <[email protected]>
To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] New Radiance Website
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Absolutely! Let me know when it contains Radiance components and I will link to it. Or better yet, register, I'll promote you, and you can add the link when it is time.

Andy

On Mar 6, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Guglielmetti, Robert wrote:

I'd also like to point out that NREL is developing the Building
Component Library (BCL), initially conceived as a repository for
vetted energy model components, but there is no reason why Radiance
data/models couldn't be added to the schema. The idea is there will be
a place to go to search for energy model bits -- everything from HVAC,
windows, materials, lights, weather files -- and these can be
downloaded, or pulled directly into an OpenStudio model. I definitely
envision us adding Radiance-ready data to these database members.

We've got it mocked up here: https://bcl.nrel.gov/

So, another place to link to.

Rob Guglielmetti IESNA, LEED AP
Commercial Buildings Research Group
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
1617 Cole Blvd MS:RSF202
Golden, CO 80401
T. 303.275.4319
F. 303.630.2055
E. [email protected]

On 3/6/12 10:22 AM, "Andy McNeil" <[email protected]> wrote:

HI Lars,

I think your comments regarding FAQ's are spot on. I don't want to
duplicate effort, so I'd like to let you continue to develop your FAQ
and will replace the stub on with a redirection to your site. It
would be nice to integrate the two, at least using the same login/passwords.

I agree that models are generally less useful than objects, but I
would contend that in the research community there are desires to
share and use standard models. I have some Radiance models for DOE
prototype buildings that others might like to use. And HMG has 61
models of existing buildings that many have already asked for them to share.

But regardless, we can let users decide which is worth sharing. And
taking the lead from your FAQ, we could get rid of the formal
categories and instead using tags. If you want to simulate a
daylight redirecting system you would probably want to see results
for both a cal file and a model of the system.

I'll end by saying - please help!

Andy

On Mar 5, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Lars O. Grobe wrote:

Hi Andy, hi list!

This is a nice framework for an appealing site! I especially like
the fact that the design of the "good old" site could be adopted.

I started setting up something related recently. Not based on Plone
but Drupal, not a complete "Radiance Website" but a concept
focussing on just having a working FAQ one day. You may get an idea here:

http://radiance.larsgrobe.de

The only part of interest on the site is the FAQ for now. I have
spent some time on thinking how to organize a FAQ, and abandoned the
idea of having single categories per question. I believe a
tag-system being much more appropriate, e.g. a question/answer pair
on mkillum might be related to "commands", "diffuse indirect calculation", "complex glazing"
and "optimizations". One day one might decide to also tag the
content on user levels, so a tag "advanced user" might be added.
Browsing the mailing lists, there is such a vast amount of
information that I tend to pay a lot of attention on the topic of
marking it. Once a certain amount of content is available, tag
clouds (which may occur in alphabetical order - I do not rely like
the fancy cloud displays typically rendered with lots of formatting) may be of more help then a fixed hierarchy.

One feature that I spent some time on was to integrate tex notation
into the content management. I added a test on the start page. You
can embed any Latex code in the content, which will be rendered into
inline images, but also be available as pdf downloads. The need to
display formulas and algorithms seams to be of importance. I am
going to add support for describing geometry in the content
management, too - basically I want to keep content descriptive and
avoid bitmap images as far as possible, so that content can be
reused (e.g. for copying the Latex source into a formula editor when
writing an article), reformatted and extended at any time.

On sharing: I think that sharing models is an interesting part of a
community website, though I am not sure that much model content will
become available. Most Radiance models are case-studies - buildings,
rooms, facades. Objects to be shared are more like furniture and
other decorative stuff, not bound to a specific use case - which is
already available on the internat. Similar is true for textures.

I see a need for sharing of cal-files. This would require an
interface where I could check the parameters and get a preview of
the results - downloading the cal-file is easy, using it makes things difficult.

The gallery is a must....

A Radiance material library would be great and is a topic on its
own. I started a concept of holding material data in a database,
with several interfaces to access it. I would prefer the data to be
independent of the software using it, so e.g. I would want spectral
resolutions supported beyond the three RGB channels natively supported by Radiance.

Extracting a Radiance material from this could be implemented in the
interface - combining the measured data from the database with the
assumptions to be made when using it in Radiance (e.g. I would need
to know that the data from the spectrometer are to be used with a
plastic modifier). So a material record could contain a table
"models", where I could add proposed models for various software
tools. So querying the model-table for "Radiance" for this material
would return "plastic", while querying for "MyOtherRenderer" could
return "lambertianReflection".

I decided not to publicly announce this project so far, as there is
little content right now. Maybe there is some potential for
combining efforts, so I add this to the discussion.

Cheers, Lars.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:41:02 +0000
From: John Mardaljevic <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] the disk of the sun
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Mike,

See page (number) 60 in chapter 3 here for a description how to derive the luminance of the sun from direct normal illuminance:

http://www.iesd.dmu.ac.uk/~jm/doku.php?id=resources:thesis

Includes a little discussion re: the inconsistency of applying a measurement taken with an acceptance angle of, say, 6 degrees to a source - the sun - that has an angle 0.5 degrees. Note that the discussion is couched in terms of predicting illuminance.

Best
John Mardaljevic

Reader in Daylight Modelling
Institute of Energy and Sustainable Development De Montfort University, The Gateway, Leicester, LE1 9BH, UK
Tel: +44 (0) 116 257 7972

[email protected]
http://www.iesd.dmu.ac.uk/~jm
http://dmu.academia.edu/JohnMardaljevic

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:54:44 -0700
From: "Guglielmetti, Robert" <[email protected]>
To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] New Radiance Website
Message-ID: <CB7BE33F.EAB0%[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes those example models are still in there, and we rely on them being there for testing our builds, so I'd hate to see those ones get moved...

Rob Guglielmetti IESNA, LEED AP
Commercial Buildings Research Group
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
1617 Cole Blvd MS:RSF202
Golden, CO 80401
T. 303.275.4319
F. 303.630.2055
E. [email protected]

On 3/6/12 3:03 PM, "Lars O. Grobe" <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Andy,

I agree that there is a demand for sharing models. Besides what you
mentioned, it is great for educational purpose and for validation. It
may even reduce the downloads - if we could remove example scenes from
the auxiliary files (errr are they still in there?) and have a makefile
not only running oconv and rpict, but fetch model data when needed from
a known URL.

For integrating my FAQ-start, I'd be happy to support this. Maybe the
formatting would need to be sent through your CSS. Sharing accounts
should be rather easy, there are lots of interfaces available in times
of social networks (opened? Huuuuh big brother Radiance ;)...). I think
we can discuss this off-list (with everyone included who is interested).

For those starting to play around now - please forgive the
user-unfriendliness (you may also call it rudeness) of the site in its
current stage. I did not plan to make it public yet and posted the
address more as a contribution to the discussion. I will do some
polishing in the coming days, until then expect it to behave as what it
is - still experimental :wink:

Cheers, Lars.

--
Dipl.-Ing. Architect Lars O. Grobe

On Mar 6, 2012, at 19:22, Andy McNeil <[email protected]> wrote:

HI Lars,

I think your comments regarding FAQ's are spot on. I don't want to
duplicate effort, so I'd like to let you continue to develop your FAQ
and will replace the stub on with a redirection to your site. It
would be nice to integrate the two, at least using the same login/passwords.

I agree that models are generally less useful than objects, but I
would contend that in the research community there are desires to
share and use standard models. I have some Radiance models for DOE
prototype buildings that others might like to use. And HMG has 61
models of existing buildings that many have already asked for them to share.

But regardless, we can let users decide which is worth sharing. And
taking the lead from your FAQ, we could get rid of the formal
categories and instead using tags. If you want to simulate a daylight
redirecting system you would probably want to see results for both a
cal file and a model of the system.

I'll end by saying - please help!

Andy

On Mar 5, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Lars O. Grobe wrote:

Hi Andy, hi list!

This is a nice framework for an appealing site! I especially like
the fact that the design of the "good old" site could be adopted.

I started setting up something related recently. Not based on Plone
but Drupal, not a complete "Radiance Website" but a concept
focussing on just having a working FAQ one day. You may get an idea here:

http://radiance.larsgrobe.de

The only part of interest on the site is the FAQ for now. I have
spent some time on thinking how to organize a FAQ, and abandoned the
idea of having single categories per question. I believe a
tag-system being much more appropriate, e.g. a question/answer pair
on mkillum might be related to "commands", "diffuse indirect
calculation", "complex glazing"
and "optimizations". One day one might decide to also tag the
content on user levels, so a tag "advanced user" might be added.
Browsing the mailing lists, there is such a vast amount of
information that I tend to pay a lot of attention on the topic of
marking it. Once a certain amount of content is available, tag
clouds (which may occur in alphabetical order - I do not rely like
the fancy cloud displays typically rendered with lots of formatting)
may be of more help then a fixed hierarchy.

One feature that I spent some time on was to integrate tex notation
into the content management. I added a test on the start page. You
can embed any Latex code in the content, which will be rendered into
inline images, but also be available as pdf downloads. The need to
display formulas and algorithms seams to be of importance. I am
going to add support for describing geometry in the content
management, too - basically I want to keep content descriptive and
avoid bitmap images as far as possible, so that content can be
reused (e.g. for copying the Latex source into a formula editor when
writing an article), reformatted and extended at any time.

On sharing: I think that sharing models is an interesting part of a
community website, though I am not sure that much model content will
become available. Most Radiance models are case-studies - buildings,
rooms, facades. Objects to be shared are more like furniture and
other decorative stuff, not bound to a specific use case - which is
already available on the internat. Similar is true for textures.

I see a need for sharing of cal-files. This would require an
interface where I could check the parameters and get a preview of
the results - downloading the cal-file is easy, using it makes things difficult.

The gallery is a must....

A Radiance material library would be great and is a topic on its
own. I started a concept of holding material data in a database,
with several interfaces to access it. I would prefer the data to be
independent of the software using it, so e.g. I would want spectral
resolutions supported beyond the three RGB channels natively supported by Radiance.

Extracting a Radiance material from this could be implemented in the
interface - combining the measured data from the database with the
assumptions to be made when using it in Radiance (e.g. I would need
to know that the data from the spectrometer are to be used with a
plastic modifier). So a material record could contain a table
"models", where I could add proposed models for various software
tools. So querying the model-table for "Radiance" for this material
would return "plastic", while querying for "MyOtherRenderer" could
return "lambertianReflection".

I decided not to publicly announce this project so far, as there is
little content right now. Maybe there is some potential for
combining efforts, so I add this to the discussion.

Cheers, Lars.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

End of Radiance-general Digest, Vol 97, Issue 4
***********************************************