getting irradiance from source defined in photometric units

Hi,

I am trying to get the irradiance [W/m2] on an object surface by a HMI source with a known cd-distribution which I was able to get from a plot (I read the values [cd] from the polar plot, made a IES-formatted luminaire description of it and converted this using ies2rad). I had put "metal halide" into the [LAMP]-line of the ies, in the hope that radiance would match the HMI-type then.

Now I am wondering how to interpret the results. In general, I would assume the results of a Radiance simulation to be in W/m2, and the conversion to happen at the beginning, so in the lamp.tab-look-up by ies2rad in my case. So am I correct using the results without further conversion, and having -m 1 -l W/m2 as falsecolor's parameters?

Thank you, cheers

Lars.

Lars,
falsecolor default output are nits 1 cd/m2 or lux lm/m2 if you have used -i in rpict , so if you use -l W/m2 only change the legend, imo, you would use -s 1 to change the default multiplier from 179, or use "Lux" as legend, although you've introduced the data as cd, radiance makes the conversion in ies2rad to W and then again to cd or lm in falsecolor, anyway i would use lux rather than irradiance as output, because with W/m2 you are considering a Luminous efficacy conversion

regards,
Ignacio

Lars O. Grobe escribió:

···

Hi,

I am trying to get the irradiance [W/m2] on an object surface by a HMI source with a known cd-distribution which I was able to get from a plot (I read the values [cd] from the polar plot, made a IES-formatted luminaire description of it and converted this using ies2rad). I had put "metal halide" into the [LAMP]-line of the ies, in the hope that radiance would match the HMI-type then.

Now I am wondering how to interpret the results. In general, I would assume the results of a Radiance simulation to be in W/m2, and the conversion to happen at the beginning, so in the lamp.tab-look-up by ies2rad in my case. So am I correct using the results without further conversion, and having -m 1 -l W/m2 as falsecolor's parameters?

Thank you, cheers

Lars.

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Hi Ignacio!

Thanks for the quick reply! Just to avoid misunderstandings, the -s parameter in falsecolor does not change the radiometric values but the scale that is applied to them in the resulting image (as this is a one-way, this does not reallt matter). So with -s, you define the range of pixel values that will mapped to the color scale. The multiplier is given following -m, and the default (to get from radiometric to photometric according to the internal efficacy of 153 lm/W that is used by Radiance) is -m 153. So that is why I was wondering whether giving -m 1 would be enough.

My main concern is at the moment whether the HMI-source photometry is correctly transfered into radiometry by only using ies2rad with the lamptab (unfortunately I do not have more detailed information on the emission spectrum and luminous efficacy).

Cheers, Lars.

Oh Sorry!!, i had mixed the -s and -m parameter in the falsecolor man page, the lamp color conversion from cie to rgb will affect the radiance output (scaled by the color) , but I don't know how that can be interpreted,
regards, ignacio

Lars O. Grobe escribió:

···

Hi Ignacio!

Thanks for the quick reply! Just to avoid misunderstandings, the -s parameter in falsecolor does not change the radiometric values but the scale that is applied to them in the resulting image (as this is a one-way, this does not reallt matter). So with -s, you define the range of pixel values that will mapped to the color scale. The multiplier is given following -m, and the default (to get from radiometric to photometric according to the internal efficacy of 153 lm/W that is used by Radiance) is -m 153. So that is why I was wondering whether giving -m 1 would be enough.

My main concern is at the moment whether the HMI-source photometry is correctly transfered into radiometry by only using ies2rad with the lamptab (unfortunately I do not have more detailed information on the emission spectrum and luminous efficacy).

Cheers, Lars.

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Isn't the internal efficacy 179?

-Jack

Ignacio Munarriz wrote:

···

Oh Sorry!!, i had mixed the -s and -m parameter in the falsecolor man page, the lamp color conversion from cie to rgb will affect the radiance output (scaled by the color) , but I don't know how that can be interpreted,
regards, ignacio

Lars O. Grobe escribió:

Hi Ignacio!

Thanks for the quick reply! Just to avoid misunderstandings, the -s parameter in falsecolor does not change the radiometric values but the scale that is applied to them in the resulting image (as this is a one-way, this does not reallt matter). So with -s, you define the range of pixel values that will mapped to the color scale. The multiplier is given following -m, and the default (to get from radiometric to photometric according to the internal efficacy of 153 lm/W that is used by Radiance) is -m 153. So that is why I was wondering whether giving -m 1 would be enough.

My main concern is at the moment whether the HMI-source photometry is correctly transfered into radiometry by only using ies2rad with the lamptab (unfortunately I do not have more detailed information on the emission spectrum and luminous efficacy).

Cheers, Lars.

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http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

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--
# Jack de Valpine
# president
#
# visarc incorporated
# http://www.visarc.com
#
# channeling technology for superior design and construction

Isn't the internal efficacy 179?

Errrrrrr yes, but the rising energy prices - was it me talking about
avoiding misunderstandings? ;-))) Sorry...

Cheers Lars.

No problem! I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed some critical change somewhere along the way....

Best,

-Jack

Lars O. Grobe wrote:

···

Isn't the internal efficacy 179?
    

Errrrrrr yes, but the rising energy prices - was it me talking about
avoiding misunderstandings? ;-))) Sorry...

Cheers Lars.

_______________________________________________
Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general
  
--
# Jack de Valpine
# president
#
# visarc incorporated
# http://www.visarc.com
#
# channeling technology for superior design and construction

Jack de Valpine wrote:

No problem! I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed some critical change somewhere along the way....

I hope not :wink: Still, I am not really sure whether I am doing right... Does anyone know whether the lamp,tab-lookup done by ies2rad also accounts for the luminous efficacy of a source? This would be required to get correct radiance values for rgb from the candela-distribution of a source. I would e.g. assume an efficacy of 100lm/W for my source, and if ies2rad would use 179 instead, the radiance values in my simulation would be by far too low...

Cheers, Lars.

Hi Lars,

lamp.tab provides information to adjust the lamp chromaticity and apply a lamp lumen depreciation factor based on the source type. Up until now, I always thought using -t white for all sources in the scene was safer (OK, easier) because I like to roll in my lamp lumen depreciation factor with all the other things that go into a total light loss factor (LLF). I consider lamp lumen depreciation, luminaire dirt depreciation and room surface dirt depreciation, maintenance factor, and the product of all those is the LLF, which I apply all at once with the -m option of ies2rad. This was my main rationale for using -t white for all sources, but also the distinct coloration of the different sources was a problem. I forgot that you could white balance the image after the fact with pfilt, though, which leads me to my next rabbit hole:

Given that one can do a final white balancing after the fact, it does seem that we should be striving for maximum accuracy with our electric light source descriptions and specifying the lamp type/color. Just playing with the lampcolor script, I get some different luminances by changing the lamp type. I used white, incandescent, and fluorescent, and spread 200 lumens over a 1 meter polygon, and ended up with 63.7, 60.5, and 54.1 cd/m^2 respectively. Since lampcolor uses the same lamp.tab data file as ies2rad does, we can expect similar variation in light sources created using ies2rad and using different lamp types. Seems like a potential for error to me, but then again obtaining accurate CIExy data and lumen maintenance values for all the new lamps coming out seems a bit daunting too. Is this splitting hairs? I'm curious what others in the community are doing in this regard.

···

--
Robert Guglielmetti IES, LEED AP
Building Energy Efficiency Engineer
National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)
1617 Cole Blvd, MS-5202
Golden, CO 80401
[email protected]
303.275.4319

________________________________
From: "Lars O. Grobe" <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 05:52:00 -0600
To: Radiance general discussion <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Radiance-general] getting irradiance from source defined in photometric units

Jack de Valpine wrote:

No problem! I just wanted to make sure that I had not missed some
critical change somewhere along the way....

I hope not :wink: Still, I am not really sure whether I am doing right...
Does anyone know whether the lamp,tab-lookup done by ies2rad also
accounts for the luminous efficacy of a source? This would be required
to get correct radiance values for rgb from the candela-distribution of
a source. I would e.g. assume an efficacy of 100lm/W for my source, and
if ies2rad would use 179 instead, the radiance values in my simulation
would be by far too low...

Cheers, Lars.

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Radiance-general mailing list
[email protected]
http://www.radiance-online.org/mailman/listinfo/radiance-general

Hi Lars,

I just found this old post by searching for ies2rad and 179 lumens/watt. I was wondering if you have found the answer to your question. I have a similar issue now. I have a luminaire with a luminous efficacy of 79 lumens/watt, and I am concerned that using 179 lumens/watt to convert my values could compromise the results.

The 179 lumens/watt is the efficacy of equal-energy white light over the visible spectrum, and is used purely as a conversion factor between radiometric and photometric units in Radiance. It should not affect your results.

A luminaire’s efficacy is different, and converts electrical power input to lumen output. It will always be far below the ideal conversion efficacy, which only considers light flux and how sensitive the eye is to the delivered spectrum.

-Greg

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Thank you for your reply, Greg.

So, in this case, since Radiance uses the conversion factor of 179 lumens/watt for all conversions of irradiance RGB values to illuminance, Do I have to use the conversion factor of 179 lumens/watt instead of the luminous efficacy of the luminaire itself?

It depends on what you are doing with this number. If you are multiplying the power input by the luminaire efficacy, then the number you have from the manufacturer is the one to use. If you are using the conversion value to go from measured lumens BACK to radiometric units for Radiance, then the standard 179 lumens/watt factor should be your divisor. That way, you’ll get back the desired photometric quantities after the simulation when you apply this same 179 multiplier. (I.e., divide by 179 on the way in, multiply by 179 on the way out, and the value of the mulitplier doesn’t matter.)

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